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Veteran SCW players - Troop Quality - Tercio, 5th Regt PCE
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cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
Veteran SCW players - Troop Quality - Tercio, 5th Regt PCE  Reply with quote  

I'm preparing a modest first SCW convention game for Little Wars. It is based around two columns of Army of Africa versus a mixed column of Militias and loyal army units outside of Toledo in late September 1936.

For those of you San Miguel Valley campaign veterans or other SCW players:

1) Elite 10 vs Vet 10 for the Spanish Foreign Legion. One column includes the 5th Bandera, a very seasoned unit, before it sustains heavy casualties late in 1936. Does an Elite 10 unit blow away play balance? The CPQ 7 ratings are my guide. I'm leaning toward Vet 10 - with the regulares at VET 9 or so. Anyone have any opinions? To be honest I haven't played a single TOB game with an Elite battalion, and I am wondering about impacts.

2) Does anyone know if battalions of the 5th Regiment (PCE - Stalinist Communists) were organized by Oct 1936. I have limited information sources about when they formed and fielded the initial battalions. I believe they were, but not sure.

3) Does anyone know when the first Soviet Aircraft were used in the battles on the roads to Madrid. I have a beautiful I-15 Chato, but don't know if they were employed by the last week of September 1936.

I'm completing some of the TOB data charts extracts now. If anyone needs them, please PM me. Otherwise I'll reach out to Barry about posting them when/ if they are interested.

Thanks for your help.

Chris

Post Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:46 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jack Radey
Major General


Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 2853
Location: Eugene, OR
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I have a lot of issues with the unit ratings of the CPQ 7 on the SCW. I think that the Legion being Elite is a bit of moonshine. Vet 9 is enough to go through most militia, who should, at very best be Trained 8, and more likely Green 7. Somewhere I have a history of all the brigades of the Republican Army, will see what I can find tonight. Maybe. I know that the Soviet aircraft showed up about the time the Fascists reached Madrid.

There is an SCW discussion list, fairly quiet these last few years, on Yahoo, where you might find some better answers. I am fairly sure none of the units produced by the 5th Regiment were at Toledo, but I will check.
Salud!

Post Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:13 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Reasoner
Colonel


Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 922
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
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To add my 2 cents worth, I also think Elite kind of excessive even for the early Legion Bandera. I would likewise suggest Veteran 9 or 10 for them.

I don't have much on the PCE 5th Regiment, so no real help there.

According to this excellent website on SCW aviation, the first I-15 arrived during October-November 1936:

http://usuarios.lycos.es/mrval/GCE.HTM

See this for the specific info on I-15 deliveries, etc. All in Spanish, but not hard to figure out.

http://usuarios.lycos.es/mrodval/fi1668.htm

David

Post Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:24 am   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Chris Jacobsen
Lance Corporal


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 32
Location: St. Paul, MN
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Chris -

I didn't see your game listed in the Little Wars PEL or the errata. I really enjoyed your East Africa game last year and would enjoy playing in this game if you are going to be running it.

Chris J.

Post Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:52 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
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Guys - thanks for the responses.

Jack - I agree - I think there are some reacl challenges in fielding forces of varying quality in a scenario and coming up with a fun game for players. The difference in quality between Army of Africa troops and the militia elements they faced is really significant. Makes you wonder how Madrid held - perhaps too many frontal assaults!

I think I'm going with VET 10 for the Tercio, and perhaps EXP 9 for the Regulares. I think then it makes things a little more palatable for the Republicans. I'm thinking of making Spanish Penninsular army regiments Regulars and perhaps the PCE battalion. Asaltos and Guardia Civil in the Reg to Exp range, and militia in the green/ trained ranges.

I'm thinking about a mechanic in the game whereby column commanders only determine the quality of their battalions after they first sight the enemy. Say a die roll to get 1-3 Green 4-8 Trained 9,10 Regular to help reflect the variability and give them some hope.

David - thanks for the links - those are great sites I hadn't found in my searching. I'm itching to use my I-15 and the RO-37 I'm painstakingly building (some of us are less talented modelers than others!) I guess I'll have to wait until after Madrid!
BTW - I'm working on my flagbearers for the Andalusians, UGT, CNT, and PCE - pictures here soon....

Chris - sent you a PM - looking forward to it - the event is at 5PM on the Friday night - it didn't make the PEL!.

Post Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:57 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jack Radey
Major General


Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 2853
Location: Eugene, OR
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Shocked Shocked YOU HAVE AN RO-37???!!! Shocked Shocked
WHAT SCALE??? I mean, not that they're exactly GOOD for anything, except to give the I-15 pilot some fun, but...

My air fleet is in 1/144 (assuming there is anyone on this forum who doesn't know THAT already) and I have managed to put together SB, I-15, I-16 groups, but except for three die cast what are probably meant to be WWI biplane fighters of indifferent pedigree (painted up in sand and spinache camouflage, they work OK for Fascist CR-32s or whatever else is needed), but an RO-37, what a dream.

If you are in 1/144 scale, and have ambitions for the Riveresco CR-32, in 1/144 scale, may I dissuade you. I had three master modelers look at it and say, "No way, man" and a lot of ruder expressions not encouraged on this family friendly forum. To say they are hard to put together does not begin to describe the experience. One guy considered flight testing one, against the nearest wall. Some day, when I have nothing to do...

Post Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:35 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
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Hey Jack -

My RO-37 kit is in 1/72. I'm a mid grade lousy model builder, but have always wanted to have one in my air arm. I tend to limit my airfleet to diecast/ painted 1/100, 1/144 or 1/72. I just spend less time on the aircraft normally. I just try to collect the same scale aircraft for a particular game.

The RO-37 is a favorite for a number of reasons, despite its lack of survivability. I plan to run games in Abyssinia 1935, and they may have even been state of the art then. If I complete it reasonably well, I'll post some pics. I actually got to poke around the wreckage of a couple a few years ago - really an interesting aircraft (if not challenged by enemy fighters).

To be honest, I've always been inspired by the Robin Hunt articles in the old Military Modelling series about the SCW. I remember being in my early teens and literally inhaling the pictures over and over. I was able to track down the four part series last year, and the 1/72 pics of aircraft were really great. I remember trying to repeat his figure conversions - putting Atlantic Indian turbaned heads on Airfix French WW1 infantry bodies to make regulares - I'm afraid hobby supplies were much cruder twenty five years ago, and they never stuck!

If I ever get it done, I'll post a picture or two....

Post Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:26 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Reasoner
Colonel


Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 922
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
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Chris, I got hooked on the SCW by the very same series of articles in MM back in 1984-85. I don't have the issue with the aircraft article, though.

Where did you manage to encounter a couple of Ro.37 wrecks, by the way?

David

Post Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:21 pm   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
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David - the RO-37's were in a vehicle scrapyard behind the Kabul Militiary Training Center. In late 2004 the Afghan government cleared away generations of military aircraft and wrecked Russian armored vehicles around the Kabul International Airport in preparation for an international convention to promote foreign investment in Afghanistan. When they did it, they hauled all of the old airframes to the Boneyard.

I had been through there many times over the course of a year- the HQ for my Afghan Corps was nearby. Aside from seeing Schneider 155mm howitzers with wooden wheels and 1917 stamps on the barrels, PAK 36 ATG's. T-34's, SU-76's, and a couple of FT-17's, I was amazed to find a scrapyard air fleet of canvas biplanes. Although not immediately apparent, after scraping 60 years of crud off the instrument panels, a data plate id'd the planes. There was also some sort of Blenheim aircraft that was a side by side two seater canvas and wooden construction.

Apparently in the late 1930's, the Italian government sold a squadron of RO-37's to the Afghan king for use as scout bombers in suppressing tribes not behaving. I'm sure supplying arms to a kingdom bordering British India might have had something to do with it. I would be willing to bet they were in operation into the 1960's. Other aviation historians may be able to reveal more.

Something about the very dry climate there makes it a semi-ideal place for storing vintage vehicles. I took some pictures, but haven't been able to find the files yet. Anyway, a long post, but it was pretty cool.

Post Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:23 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Reasoner
Colonel


Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 922
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
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Chris, it doesn't surprise me to find out they were in Afghanistan. Amazing what has surfaced there:



Not my photo, but an internet friend and fellow wargamer took this shot of a very rare derelict Disston Tractor Tank (a small number were supplied to the Afghans during the mid'30's) during his tour in Kabul a few years ago.

David

Post Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:16 am   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
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David - you solved a mystery for me. One of these Disston contraptions was in a holding area behind my camp at Pol-e-Charki. I wondered at the magnificant improvisation that it way - an old caterpillar tractor with individual Peoria Illinois stamps on each track link.

To imagine these were manufactured and sold. If indeed only three were sent to Afghanistan, then we've now seen all three. Two I saw - one at Pol-e-Charki, east of Kabul, and one at the garrison near Daruluman in southern Kabul. This picture you posted is of a third distinct example - the other two still had the tracks/infrastructure. In fact I believe the one from Daruluman is the one in the museum display in this link (as it was the only one with gun still mounted and tracks intact.)

The india pattern carriers were there too, along with so many other items. If there wasn't a war on....

Post Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:47 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Alvin
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 593
Location: Illinois
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quote:
Originally posted by cmikucki:


Chris - sent you a PM - looking forward to it - the event is at 5PM on the Friday night - it didn't make the PEL!.


Dang, I'm coming up friday, but not sure if I'll make it by 5. Crying or Very sad

Steve Alvin

Post Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:29 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
grumble 87106
Major General


Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2842
Location: Lancaster PA - USA
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quote:
If there wasn't a war on....


In the 1980's in Nicaragua (during the Contra war) there was a L-3 Italian tankette on display in the Mercado Oriental in Managua. The plaque talked about the "ridiculous tank given to Somoza by Mussolini".

In the central highlands between Matagalpa and Jinotega by the side of the highway was the hulk of an armoured car. Never managed to stop and look closely, but it seemed to be a Daimler, judging by the shape of the turret.

Daniel

Post Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:46 pm   View user's profile Send private message
David Reasoner
Colonel


Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 922
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
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Daniel, that L3 tankette was photographed still in active service as late as 1979. Almost certainly the last operational CV-33 tankette in the world!

David

Post Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:13 am   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
cmikucki
Chief Warrant Officer


Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 353
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I might have mentioned this before, but at Pol-e-Charki, east of Kabul, the pride of the 3d Bde, 201st Corps armor kandak (battalion) was its one CV35 in running order.

There was a credible story about the 10th Mountain guys trying to pack it in a conex on their way out from the first ETT deployment. I was amazed to find that it still ran very cleanly.

I haven't been there in 3 years, but I suspect it still sits there on the pedestal in front of the armor battalion HQ.

Amazing.

Post Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:08 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
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