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Originally posted by Bob_Mackenzie:

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Why down rate AFV auto cannons???

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Well volunteered that man!

I want to keep AP & HE rof same to make life easier
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Folks;

I have some 'friends' who prefer the M2 .50 cal for the range and the Mk19 40mm AGL for the increased lethality at a shorter range and suppression capability overall.

John Drye

Since CD ToB includes the metric of suppression for HE fire, I wonder if that can help differentiate AGLs and auto cannons?

That is, the lofted, mortar-like fire of modern AGLs allows creation of a beaten zone of sufficient strength and density to cause suppression, while the direct fire (often grazing fire) of auto cannons does not. The actual effect numbers can be the same or similar.

Can any ballistic experts out there confirm or refute?

John Drye

If you read back carefully you'll see we decided that AGL's count as weapons stands so can suppress
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Aha! So, I see. Excellent “theft of rule” here, an outstanding approach to wargame design.

I hadn’t quite made the connection between weapons stands and suppression in this case.

Would the ToB RAW be appropriate here: one suppressing shot from a weapons stand because it represents a mix of MG and light mortars; or should AGLs get a small beaten zone perhaps similar to the 1” 75mm pattern, and a multiple ROF within that zone?

Light mortars and weapons stands may fire in Prep Fire (even though they are not H-class weapons), and one stand of the firing player's choice, targeted by the firing stand in either Prep Fire or Opportunity Fire, is suppressed.

BTW, the an Nasiriyah scenario includes both 40mm AGLs and 25mm LAV autocannons, so I will report back on how the two weapons compare.

John Drye

I was thinking TOB RAW at least for play-test purposes
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Report on AGLs, MGs and ACs as promised.

The USMC weapons stands and AGLs worked well to suppress / destroy defending infantry in preparation for assault by rifle platoons. Would have also worked on “good” defending infantry.

This rule / rating seems to make sense.

There was an engagement where LAVs w/AC, AGLs, HMGs and infantry all were firing on dug-in infantry. LAVs did not perform as memoirs have described because of the “WWII-era AC ratings”.

Accounts of the 2003 war suggest that Iraqi infantry was just as afraid of 25mm-armed LAVs as they were of M1s. That is, they waited for LAV and tank units to pass by before opening up on softer, less dangerous targets.

The suggestion to “un down-rate” ACs makes sense. Otherwise, why would armies have consistently moved from .50 cal to 20-30mm+ on APCs/IFVs? Not just anti-armor capability.

The operators I talk to all consider a 20mm+ AC an improvement on the .50 cal for personnel and lightly armored targets. And they are very fond of “Ma deuce”.

So, count this vote in favor of 6/5/4/3 for 20mm to 30mm ACs. ROF = 1 for HE here, right?

John Drye

IIRC, I might be one of them with those preferences...

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Originally posted by John Drye:
Folks;

I have some 'friends' who prefer the M2 .50 cal for the range and the Mk19 40mm AGL for the increased lethality at a shorter range and suppression capability overall.

John Drye

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Part of the reason for the Iraqi fear of the 25mm chain gun is religious. Islam believes you enter with your body in the form it was in when you die. The 25mm chain gun, as well as the M2 .50 and the combat shotgun, has a tendency to shred any soft target it hits, especially a body. That fear of entering heaven with a shredded body was a big part of the reason the Iraqis avoided the 25mm chain gun when possible.

I worked with a guy who was in Iraq with the Guard and used a shotgun. When clearing houses, he actually had Iraqis surrender when they heard him rack a round into his shotgun. The sound of that shotgun charging a round was distinctive, and the Iraqis didn't want to have anything to do with it.

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Originally posted by John Drye:
Report on AGLs, MGs and ACs as promised...

Accounts of the 2003 war suggest that Iraqi infantry was just as afraid of 25mm-armed LAVs as they were of M1s. That is, they waited for LAV and tank units to pass by before opening up on softer, less dangerous targets...

John Drye

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Originally posted by Gunner:
Part of the reason for the Iraqi fear of the 25mm chain gun is religious. Islam believes you enter with your body in the form it was in when you die.

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Nobody, but nobody, wants to look at the business end of a 12 guage. Been there, done that. NOT amusing. Don't most modern weapons make quite a mess of people? Has anyone, anywhere, been eager to get hit by ANY weapon? Would good red-blooded American boys be more afraid of light auto cannon, heavy machineguns, or automatic grenade launchers? Wouldn't the correct answer be, "Yes." Do we really think other people would react differently? "Oh, stop worrying Ahmed, that's only a .50 caliber machinegun, it won't chop you into as small bits as if it were a 25mm cannon. Go out there and get 'em!" "Whew, what a relief, sir, I'll get right on it. Who cares about getting riddled with mere .50 rounds? No one will notice in paradise..."

It does - I can't explain that one. I can speak only to those things for which I have some knowledge.

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Originally posted by John Drye:


Interesting, but makes it difficult to explain suicide bombers.

In any case, I think upping the effectiveness numbers makes sense, even against the non-religious.

John Drye

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I can't disagree with what you say, Jack. I can only speak to those things about which I have some knowledge. Maybe it's a fear of having their head blown off. I can't explain their rationale.

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Originally posted by Jack Radey:
Nobody, but nobody, wants to look at the business end of a 12 guage. Been there, done that. NOT amusing. Don't most modern weapons make quite a mess of people? Has anyone, anywhere, been eager to get hit by ANY weapon?..."

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Fanaticism has been around a long time; long before Viking Berserkers no doubt. Seems it’s a part of the human condition. Perhaps so common that even a caveman can do it [apologies for reference to an especially annoying commercial on the telly in the states].

Perhaps that’s far enough off topic that we should wander back?

John Drye